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dr. jacques valet is an almost mythical

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figure among those interested in UFOs

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personally please one more question now

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they will puffiness a moonwalk halt have

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you recently had a close encounter you

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know uncle between uh between close

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encounter with something very unusual

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who are you people and while he wasn't

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really in that movie Close Encounters of

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the Third Kind there's no doubt that the

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French UFO researcher you just heard was

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based on the real-life John Foley and as

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it turns out valet was right smack in

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the middle of not just UFOs but a lot of

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the most important frontier science that

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has shaped our evolving understanding of

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who we are take for example telepathy

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mind-reading now falling under the

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category of parapsychology but go back

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50 years to Stanford Research Institute

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when Hal put off in Russell Targ who go

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on to run the US military psychic spying

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program are investigating this Israeli

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psychic named uri geller we were at ESRI

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cafeteria you know having having lunch

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and a big round table and Geller was

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across the table from me and Jerry

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suddenly says I want to do an experiment

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with you jack so this is a great story

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you know here the whole thing in this

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interview but let me cut to the chase

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so Geller instructs velay how to do this

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little experiment and it works so they

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take the next step they're right there

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in the s RI cafe which kind of blows me

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away I mean they're sitting down having

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lunch and they go well what that we have

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some envelopes left over from the

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experiment we were just running let's

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use one of those see what happens I'm

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going to send it in two things I'm going

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to send the whale

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century of fish I know a whale isn't a

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fish but you know I'm going I'm going to

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send a fish and I'm going to send the

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waterjet that I see through the window

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Geller said all of a sudden he was all

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business

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he took his pencil and he drew something

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and he says look I'm going to draw all

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I'm getting but I'm not getting one

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thing I'm getting two things I'm getting

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the fish and then I'm getting a water

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jet so he drew the two things he didn't

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draw the target there was no way he

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could have known that I did not send him

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the target I sent him two things that I

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made up and that's what he got now it's

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almost hard to believe that all this

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happened exactly the way he's saying I

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mean this is John filleting everything

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but come on well here's the real kicker

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he wrote it all down in his journal so

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here's a guy who's right in the middle

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of the computer revolution in Silicon

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Valley a world-class computer scientists

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at the time and he's right in the middle

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of a parapsychology thing and right in

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the middle of the UFO thing and he wrote

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it all down and that's what we're going

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to talk about here on sceptical now this

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interview covers a lot of ground in the

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one hour we have and I did have a chance

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to ask dr. Valley directly about the UFO

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consciousness link that we're talking

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about on the last episode of skeptical

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and I thought his answer was quite

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interesting when I hear people use your

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work as a manifesto against little gray

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men in spaceships from other planets I

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don't know how you get around that data

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you have to get out of these little

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boxes you know physics on my left and in

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psychology on my right you can't do that

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but you cannot do that in dealing with

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UFOs but what I'm saying is that you

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cannot do that anymore

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in dealing with astrophysics the problem

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that scientists have today is that time

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and space the way we were thinking about

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them

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makes sense when you begin to deal with

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particle entanglement and with

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entanglement of larger you know of

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larger physical things so we're getting

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we're going to get to the same place

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eventually well there you go

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for me somewhat interested in using

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science to find deep spirituality

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everyone getting to the same place

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sounds just about perfect stay tuned

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this is a good one my interview with dr.

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Jacques Vallee is next on sceptical

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[Music]

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today we welcome dr. Jacques filet -

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skeptic Oh

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now if you know anything at all about

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UFO research or even if what you know

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was limited to what you've seen in

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Steven Spielberg movies about UFO

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research you probably know about the

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amazing career of dr. Jacques Vallee but

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I promise you whatever you think you

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know it's only the beginning because dr.

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villa has just released three volumes of

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his journals Diaries notes musings the

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books are titled forbidden science vol 1

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2 3 they span more than 30 years of his

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career and his life they're very

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personal at times it's all there it's

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absolutely amazing dr. Bell a welcome to

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skeptic oh thanks so much for joining me

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thank you very much it's a pleasure so

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let's talk for a minute about these

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books because I know one of the goals

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you had and your publisher had and I

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spoke with your publisher is to make

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these books more accessible the other

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day I was on Amazon and I saw one of the

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original hardcover editions going for

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300 hours so it's great that they're out

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there now and anyone can pick him up and

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was that in fact one of your goals is to

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kind of make these things more

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accessible for people yes and you know I

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started writing this you know it starts

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in 1957 with when I was really a young

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student hoping to learn science and to

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get into astronomy which was my passion

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and some extent still is and you know I

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I don't have a good memory so I started

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writing things down because I just so

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that I could track what I was learning

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and you know very quickly got interested

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in UFOs because of the sighting I had

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made when I was you know a teenager and

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it just kept accumulating new you know

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new discoveries new contacts new people

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and I thought if I don't record all that

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just for my own interest I'm not going

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to be able to to really learn to see the

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patterns and I wanted to apply science

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to all this and that's how the diary

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started I you know most of science is

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written by people at the end of their

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life looking back on their glorious

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achievements and they it's a narrative

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and of course it's very linear and so

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science doesn't work that way you know

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you try something it doesn't work so you

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try something else and and it kind of

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works and then you contact somebody else

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who's ahead of you in the research and

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you get together and you form a team and

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that that's a real science works and it

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cannot be disassociated from people's

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lives I mean look at you know what we

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know about Einstein what we know about

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Oppenheimer what what we know about the

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careers of these people that's essential

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to understand when a TV tale to

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understand you know radioactivity to

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understand what what people have done

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and what they went through so you cannot

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dissociate the the discoveries from the

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lives of people in those around them you

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know what I would suggest that the scope

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here is even broader I mean I was blown

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away

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I kept thinking somebody has to grab

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these journals put them in a time

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capsule so that 100 years 200 years

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whatever people can understand what our

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culture went through in struggling how

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to come to grips with these central

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fundamental questions about who we are I

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mean yes as a scientist but more broadly

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you've been right in the center of these

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just very very deep fundamental

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questions and I'm sure you've thought of

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that well and we need to learn from our

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mistakes and learn from you know it's

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there is disclosure which

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Confirmation whatever we call it this

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week is going to be like a tsunami both

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in science of course it's going to

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expose in all the things the government

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has done or mistakes that scientists and

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skeptics have made but it's also going

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to change a lot of things and people are

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immediately going to rewrite history and

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the the original sources that's what I'm

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trying to save of course it's going to

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be swept under the waves but eventually

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people are going to need access to that

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you know how did the ideas evolve what

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were the real facts because it's not

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there isn't going to be any clean

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discovery all of a sudden that you know

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the motions are here and we're going to

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receive their ambassador the White House

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or something it's going to be very

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complicated and it's going to impact

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religions is going to impact science and

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a fundamental level and we are going to

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need access to archival material so when

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I wrote those diaries I never thought I

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would publish them or maybe my kids

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would after after I died and then I

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thought with what I saw around me people

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just not knowing the background of some

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of the things that were happening

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especially in France and in Europe and

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elsewhere where I had been accumulating

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data you know a lot of American ufology

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is very self centered it's centered on

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Roswell

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Washington and a couple of big sightings

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that people keep talking about well you

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know the u.s. as big as it is the u.s.

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is only four percent of the planet the

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things happening in the other the other

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ninety six percent and that's in part

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what I've been watching so I thought I

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should publish that but publish it in in

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hardcover so it is going to stay there

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and it will be archived and people you

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know the few people who are

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did can have access to that and then

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things sort of you know took off from

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there because I saw that people were

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scanning those books they were re

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purposing them you know replacing them

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again on the internet and there was in

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fact a much larger interest in in going

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back and looking at that so that's when

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anomalous suggested publishing them you

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know in paperback and in ebooks I

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thought that was the right time to do it

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great and I'm really glad you did and

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let's dive in I mean there's just so

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much to unpack here just at every turn

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it's like oh my gosh this connection

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that connection way beyond just UFOs to

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as people will see but let's start and I

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wanted to start at the very beginning

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this reinforces some of the points

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you've just been making but in the

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forward the very first page of the book

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you write it is unusual for scientists

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to keep Diaries and even more unusual

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for them to make them public and you

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just talked about all that but then you

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come on to say like most of my

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colleagues I followed this rule of

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science for the last 30 years never

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expecting that these journals would be

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published before my death but I have

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finally decided that I had to keep that

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I had no right to keep them private

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anymore

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although they contain many passages that

273
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:24,490
are very personal and some that are very

274
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:25,330
painful

275
00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:27,730
you're just wide open in these things

276
00:13:33,690 --> 00:13:30,910
you kind of tell all they also provide

277
00:13:36,270 --> 00:13:33,700
primary source about a crucial fact in

278
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:36,280
the recent historical record and this

279
00:13:41,610 --> 00:13:38,560
what I want to highlight obviously the

280
00:13:45,270 --> 00:13:41,620
appearance of new classes of phenomena

281
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:45,280
that highlighted the reality of the

282
00:13:52,980 --> 00:13:48,730
paranormal now again this is kind of

283
00:13:56,130 --> 00:13:52,990
your bread and butter but to see it so

284
00:13:59,520 --> 00:13:56,140
starkly written by someone as prominent

285
00:14:02,790 --> 00:13:59,530
as you in no uncertain terms is still

286
00:14:04,530 --> 00:14:02,800
kind of stunning and then if that's not

287
00:14:08,370 --> 00:14:04,540
enough you're going to say these

288
00:14:08,820 --> 00:14:08,380
phenomena were deliberately denied or de

289
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:08,830
store

290
00:14:13,350 --> 00:14:11,050
by those in authority within the

291
00:14:16,259 --> 00:14:13,360
government in the military science has

292
00:14:19,980 --> 00:14:16,269
never had a fair and complete access to

293
00:14:23,250 --> 00:14:19,990
the most important files this fact has

294
00:14:28,139 --> 00:14:23,260
been alleged before but never proven the

295
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:28,149
present book proves it again everyone

296
00:14:33,569 --> 00:14:30,970
kind of says they know this but until

297
00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:33,579
you see Jacques fillet write this down

298
00:14:40,290 --> 00:14:37,720
at least for me it kind of had more of

299
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:40,300
an impact I have to start by asking is

300
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:43,510
that still your view in terms of those

301
00:14:54,810 --> 00:14:48,370
two major major findings well more than

302
00:14:58,019 --> 00:14:54,820
ever we keep finding when when people

303
00:15:00,199 --> 00:14:58,029
realize what has been going on I think

304
00:15:02,460 --> 00:15:00,209
there will be at least a segment of the

305
00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:02,470
scientific community the younger

306
00:15:09,810 --> 00:15:06,430
scientists will cry that this was really

307
00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:09,820
a crime against you know against

308
00:15:15,329 --> 00:15:12,160
knowledge against against everything

309
00:15:19,670 --> 00:15:15,339
that there is there was some

310
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:19,680
justification right after the war you

311
00:15:26,940 --> 00:15:23,170
know there was a time of great turmoil

312
00:15:30,449 --> 00:15:26,950
and great uncertainty there you know the

313
00:15:34,290 --> 00:15:30,459
nuclear nuclear weapons had been

314
00:15:37,470 --> 00:15:34,300
deployed for the first time there was a

315
00:15:40,019 --> 00:15:37,480
lot of suspicion in the world you could

316
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:40,029
understand that fires would have been

317
00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:45,130
kept secret and you know I would I don't

318
00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:47,350
have an issue with that actually I think

319
00:15:54,810 --> 00:15:50,350
government has a responsibility to keep

320
00:15:57,150 --> 00:15:54,820
certain things in confidence if only to

321
00:16:00,210 --> 00:15:57,160
protect the witnesses and to protect the

322
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:00,220
future but you know this is 70 years

323
00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:03,610
later I mean what what do they have that

324
00:16:12,079 --> 00:16:09,220
today needs to be kept so the the

325
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:12,089
information really needs to be open

326
00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:15,040
maybe not all of a sudden but it needs

327
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:20,110
to be at the disposal of science we've

328
00:16:25,530 --> 00:16:21,370
made

329
00:16:27,180 --> 00:16:25,540
enormous progress since then both in

330
00:16:29,130 --> 00:16:27,190
terms of understanding the role of

331
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:29,140
science in the world in terms of

332
00:16:35,730 --> 00:16:32,170
deploying new industries and also in in

333
00:16:41,250 --> 00:16:35,740
terms of being able to do the research

334
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:41,260
on on unusual things and the acceptance

335
00:16:47,130 --> 00:16:43,680
of the idea of extraterrestrial

336
00:16:49,610 --> 00:16:47,140
intelligence of courses is here I mean

337
00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:49,620
people don't deny now that there are

338
00:16:56,820 --> 00:16:52,630
thousands of planets out there you know

339
00:17:01,950 --> 00:16:56,830
when when I was when I joined dr. Hynek

340
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:01,960
at Northwestern in 1963 we were teaching

341
00:17:07,470 --> 00:17:05,050
that there were planets throughout the

342
00:17:09,390 --> 00:17:07,480
universe you know that they were that it

343
00:17:11,870 --> 00:17:09,400
was likely that there would be planets

344
00:17:14,490 --> 00:17:11,880
including some planets which would be

345
00:17:18,150 --> 00:17:14,500
somewhat similar to the earth and would

346
00:17:20,610 --> 00:17:18,160
good support life around certain classes

347
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:20,620
of stars we were teaching that but we

348
00:17:24,540 --> 00:17:21,490
couldn't prove it

349
00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:24,550
it was just statistically you know

350
00:17:29,790 --> 00:17:26,950
something that could be deduced from the

351
00:17:32,340 --> 00:17:29,800
observations but now you know the

352
00:17:34,050 --> 00:17:32,350
astronomers actually see them and they

353
00:17:37,230 --> 00:17:34,060
have catalogues of thousands of these

354
00:17:39,630 --> 00:17:37,240
planets so the things have changed the

355
00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:39,640
public is much more open to that it's

356
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:43,200
not a marginal you know footnote anymore

357
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:46,510
it's really something that people can

358
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:49,090
can deal with psychologically the public

359
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:51,010
can deal with it but let me push on that

360
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:53,890
for a minute because yeah the public can

361
00:17:58,220 --> 00:17:56,050
deal with it the public is way ahead of

362
00:18:01,680 --> 00:17:58,230
science and you seem to be suggesting

363
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:01,690
that access to the data is what's

364
00:18:06,420 --> 00:18:04,090
holding science back from the paranormal

365
00:18:09,530 --> 00:18:06,430
and I gotta tell you I mean that's

366
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:09,540
wonderfully optimistic I'm just not sure

367
00:18:15,540 --> 00:18:12,490
that's true it certainly hasn't been my

368
00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:15,550
experience in interviewing some of the

369
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:16,960
world's leading scientists about

370
00:18:22,460 --> 00:18:19,450
consciousness about the frontier

371
00:18:25,050 --> 00:18:22,470
consciousness science I mean they're

372
00:18:31,950 --> 00:18:25,060
willfully ignorant in a lot of cases

373
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:31,960
aren't they yes and the us were problem

374
00:18:37,210 --> 00:18:34,370
even among the people who

375
00:18:40,450 --> 00:18:37,220
accept the reality of the phenomenon is

376
00:18:42,730 --> 00:18:40,460
still viewed as spacecraft

377
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:42,740
you know spacecraft like some of like

378
00:18:49,690 --> 00:18:45,770
ours people talk about let let's look at

379
00:18:51,660 --> 00:18:49,700
the propulsion let's look at the one or

380
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:51,670
whatever fuel they they leave behind

381
00:19:01,180 --> 00:18:57,530
let's look at and the which is fine but

382
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:01,190
they ignore most of what the witnesses

383
00:19:07,230 --> 00:19:04,250
are desperately trying to tell them

384
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:07,240
which is that this is also a

385
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:10,400
psychological phenomenon that it impacts

386
00:19:13,780 --> 00:19:12,290
your consciousness but well how could

387
00:19:16,090 --> 00:19:13,790
they not ignore that because they ignore

388
00:19:17,740 --> 00:19:16,100
what pair of psychologists tell us they

389
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:17,750
know they ignore what near-death

390
00:19:21,820 --> 00:19:20,330
experience researchers tell us they

391
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:21,830
ignore what researchers into the

392
00:19:25,930 --> 00:19:24,050
psychedelic experience tell us they

393
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:25,940
ignore all that because they're stuck in

394
00:19:31,930 --> 00:19:29,290
a very narrow mind equals brain

395
00:19:34,750 --> 00:19:31,940
materialistic paradigm and and you you

396
00:19:36,549 --> 00:19:34,760
just blew that away with the forward to

397
00:19:39,730 --> 00:19:36,559
your book as I guess what I'm getting at

398
00:19:43,870 --> 00:19:39,740
and that's to me the biggest paradigm

399
00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:43,880
shift UFOs alien contact is a hop skip

400
00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:46,720
and a jump from accepting that the

401
00:19:53,020 --> 00:19:51,200
materialistic paradigm is falsified well

402
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:53,030
that wouldn't be the first time in

403
00:19:58,299 --> 00:19:56,090
science and you know to be fair when I

404
00:20:01,120 --> 00:19:58,309
talk to people in parapsychology they

405
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:01,130
don't want to hear about UFOs I mean

406
00:20:09,130 --> 00:20:03,650
they say look we've got enough trouble

407
00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:09,140
with you know looking at ghosts and you

408
00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:11,600
know you regular don't tell us about

409
00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:14,110
little things that come from the sky or

410
00:20:21,790 --> 00:20:18,110
things that you know happen in

411
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:21,800
somebody's bedroom interfering with with

412
00:20:28,990 --> 00:20:24,650
the cat you know that's not so you have

413
00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:29,000
to have a solid sense of humor and I was

414
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:32,270
privileged to work with people like Amy

415
00:20:37,660 --> 00:20:35,090
Michel in France and like dr. Hynek of

416
00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:37,670
course in in the u.s. who had a sense of

417
00:20:44,350 --> 00:20:40,910
humor the sense in perspective if you

418
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:44,360
don't have that in science you know it's

419
00:20:47,890 --> 00:20:47,450
it's difficult to make progress but that

420
00:20:51,130 --> 00:20:47,900
wouldn't be

421
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:51,140
first time that science would would move

422
00:20:58,110 --> 00:20:54,650
sideways you know look how long it took

423
00:21:02,410 --> 00:20:58,120
to accept the idea of continental drift

424
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:02,420
you know that was pretty obvious when

425
00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:04,400
you look at a map of the world that

426
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:06,470
continents have been drifting away from

427
00:21:09,940 --> 00:21:07,130
each other

428
00:21:12,730 --> 00:21:09,950
but you couldn't call it that you had to

429
00:21:16,510 --> 00:21:12,740
call it something else and and look at

430
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:16,520
some of the discoveries in astrophysics

431
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:19,010
that were made by geologists and the

432
00:21:24,790 --> 00:21:21,170
geologists you know don't go to the same

433
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:24,800
congresses as astronomers so they don't

434
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:27,890
belong in the same discussion and it's

435
00:21:34,180 --> 00:21:30,080
just fascinating so among other things

436
00:21:37,540 --> 00:21:34,190
the you know the u.s. whole problem is a

437
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:37,550
gold mine for somebody wants to look at

438
00:21:42,820 --> 00:21:39,890
the history of ideas I mean you don't

439
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:42,830
have to take a position for or against

440
00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:46,010
UFOs you just look at the record I've

441
00:21:52,450 --> 00:21:49,520
been the last few days and I've been

442
00:21:55,150 --> 00:21:52,460
looking over going through my

443
00:21:57,790 --> 00:21:55,160
collections of the letters of exchange

444
00:22:00,550 --> 00:21:57,800
and the documents my correspondence with

445
00:22:02,230 --> 00:22:00,560
dr. Hynek because there is a university

446
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:02,240
that approached me and they are

447
00:22:09,340 --> 00:22:05,930
interested in you know preserving that

448
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:09,350
material and working with it and so I've

449
00:22:15,820 --> 00:22:11,810
been doing an index of all the letters

450
00:22:18,730 --> 00:22:15,830
we exchanged and it's it would be a

451
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:18,740
fascinating record for people who are

452
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:21,050
getting into the field now for example I

453
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:24,290
have a friend who said you know what we

454
00:22:28,270 --> 00:22:26,000
need and he's well-connected in

455
00:22:31,060 --> 00:22:28,280
Washington and he says what we need is

456
00:22:33,460 --> 00:22:31,070
new congressional hearings about UFOs

457
00:22:37,590 --> 00:22:33,470
well if you look at my correspondence

458
00:22:41,230 --> 00:22:37,600
with Hynek we went through two different

459
00:22:43,330 --> 00:22:41,240
actually three different waves of ideas

460
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:43,340
about congressional hearings and they

461
00:22:47,410 --> 00:22:45,410
were congressional hearings before maybe

462
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:47,420
we should look at that record before we

463
00:22:54,340 --> 00:22:51,650
do another one you know because the you

464
00:22:57,970 --> 00:22:54,350
know the results were not what people

465
00:23:01,000 --> 00:22:57,980
expected and you cannot you know it

466
00:23:01,750 --> 00:23:01,010
doesn't do any good to knock on the door

467
00:23:03,910 --> 00:23:01,760
of Congress

468
00:23:06,490 --> 00:23:03,920
and say look look what we've got you

469
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:06,500
have to prepare you have to to do a lot

470
00:23:11,710 --> 00:23:08,210
of preliminary work if you're going to

471
00:23:13,990 --> 00:23:11,720
go anywhere with you know with Congress

472
00:23:15,310 --> 00:23:14,000
or with any part of the administration

473
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:15,320
for good reasons

474
00:23:22,330 --> 00:23:19,120
the engines doesn't work that way and I

475
00:23:25,630 --> 00:23:22,340
think that we keep remaking the same

476
00:23:29,740 --> 00:23:25,640
mistakes and maybe that's one one value

477
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:29,750
of my Diaries is that next time let's be

478
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:33,170
a little bit more clever yes perhaps I

479
00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:36,050
think another obvious contribution that

480
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:38,260
the Diaries make that you alluded to

481
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:41,360
kind of in what you're saying is looking

482
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:44,510
at this stuff more broadly is just a

483
00:23:49,020 --> 00:23:46,510
gold mine and did you mention

484
00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:49,030
parapsychology we've investigated

485
00:23:53,020 --> 00:23:51,200
parapsychology a lot on this show as a

486
00:23:56,130 --> 00:23:53,030
matter of fact you know my interest in

487
00:23:58,540 --> 00:23:56,140
UFOs really grew out of my interest in

488
00:24:00,280 --> 00:23:58,550
frontier consciousness science and it's

489
00:24:01,870 --> 00:24:00,290
funny that you know you kind of came the

490
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:01,880
other direction but not really you were

491
00:24:05,770 --> 00:24:03,050
in the middle of this stuff from the

492
00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:05,780
beginning I'd refer people to your

493
00:24:11,230 --> 00:24:07,310
Diaries I'm pretty sure it's in volume

494
00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:11,240
number two December 9th 1972 you're

495
00:24:15,070 --> 00:24:12,710
having lunch with the very famous

496
00:24:18,430 --> 00:24:15,080
psychic Uri Geller who you just

497
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:18,440
mentioned a minute ago and let's set the

498
00:24:22,540 --> 00:24:19,970
stage prior to this you've been talking

499
00:24:25,570 --> 00:24:22,550
to dr. Russell Targ dr. he'll put off

500
00:24:29,380 --> 00:24:25,580
part of this group at Stanford Research

501
00:24:31,540 --> 00:24:29,390
Institute that later goes on to give

502
00:24:33,550 --> 00:24:31,550
quite a bit of fame and attention about

503
00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:33,560
the Stargate project but at this point

504
00:24:40,270 --> 00:24:37,510
they're looking at really crazy

505
00:24:42,970 --> 00:24:40,280
parapsychology things and they got this

506
00:24:45,250 --> 00:24:42,980
and and we should add that they're doing

507
00:24:48,460 --> 00:24:45,260
that at the behest of the United States

508
00:24:52,150 --> 00:24:48,470
military who is worried that the

509
00:24:54,550 --> 00:24:52,160
Russians are ahead of us in the psychic

510
00:24:58,090 --> 00:24:54,560
war thing and that's their original

511
00:25:01,510 --> 00:24:58,100
interest in it so anyways here you are

512
00:25:03,550 --> 00:25:01,520
with Uri Geller you've known about their

513
00:25:06,430 --> 00:25:03,560
interest in investigating him right from

514
00:25:09,250 --> 00:25:06,440
the beginning and you tell this is to

515
00:25:11,890 --> 00:25:09,260
the Bizzy Diaries folks I mean the story

516
00:25:15,310 --> 00:25:11,900
you tell in here is just stunning if you

517
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:15,320
would tell folks the story

518
00:25:19,780 --> 00:25:17,600
your experience with Uri Geller here the

519
00:25:21,030 --> 00:25:19,790
picture telepathy the colors the spoon

520
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:21,040
bending the whole thing

521
00:25:29,980 --> 00:25:26,090
well the let me just cut to the chase if

522
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:29,990
if I were a scientist getting into the

523
00:25:35,170 --> 00:25:32,330
field now reading those books reading

524
00:25:39,490 --> 00:25:35,180
those reports that you know especially

525
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:39,500
the the books by dr. hal buddhas and his

526
00:25:45,580 --> 00:25:42,290
colleagues you would say well you know

527
00:25:49,060 --> 00:25:45,590
there may be something there but maybe

528
00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:49,070
there's something missing maybe not

529
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:52,310
everything was recorded you know how do

530
00:25:58,840 --> 00:25:54,290
i know that this really happened because

531
00:26:00,760 --> 00:25:58,850
it you know it looks so fantastic and

532
00:26:02,860 --> 00:26:00,770
these were good people that is good

533
00:26:06,220 --> 00:26:02,870
science little good analysis good

534
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:06,230
statistics but you know it may not be

535
00:26:13,630 --> 00:26:09,890
enough to convince me and that what

536
00:26:16,620 --> 00:26:13,640
convinced me wasn't that what convinced

537
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:16,630
me was what time of course i had a

538
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:20,960
number of discussions i thanks to to

539
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:23,810
help rough i had access to two people in

540
00:26:29,670 --> 00:26:26,570
that project because they had seen UFOs

541
00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:29,680
and of course that was something that

542
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:33,320
was important in the project

543
00:26:39,190 --> 00:26:36,290
for me as a footnote so they brought me

544
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:39,200
in to help deal with that that aspect of

545
00:26:43,990 --> 00:26:42,080
it but there was one time when they had

546
00:26:46,930 --> 00:26:44,000
been doing some experiments and this was

547
00:26:51,910 --> 00:26:46,940
Russell Targ how good of a couple of

548
00:26:55,290 --> 00:26:51,920
other people and uri geller and the the

549
00:26:59,800 --> 00:26:55,300
experiments had to do with Geller

550
00:27:01,320 --> 00:26:59,810
essentially drawing what was inside the

551
00:27:04,450 --> 00:27:01,330
sealed envelope

552
00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:04,460
which were Tarkus entually targets

553
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:08,660
drawings of certain scenes to see if he

554
00:27:13,330 --> 00:27:10,970
could reproduce them without opening the

555
00:27:15,610 --> 00:27:13,340
envelope and they had a number of

556
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:15,620
envelopes that they had not used that

557
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:19,370
morning that they had with them and we

558
00:27:24,790 --> 00:27:21,530
were sort of discussing we were at the

559
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:24,800
SSRI cafeteria you know having having

560
00:27:29,330 --> 00:27:26,250
lunch

561
00:27:32,150 --> 00:27:29,340
and a big round table and Geller was

562
00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:32,160
across the table from me and Jenna

563
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:34,950
suddenly says I want to do an experiment

564
00:27:38,210 --> 00:27:35,730
with you jack

565
00:27:40,970 --> 00:27:38,220
so I'm going to send you some numbers or

566
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:40,980
you send me some numbers and the way so

567
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:42,210
I said how do you do that

568
00:27:47,420 --> 00:27:44,850
and he said well look at you you have a

569
00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:47,430
television set in your mind and you put

570
00:27:52,850 --> 00:27:49,590
the number or the scene and then you

571
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:52,860
scan it as if you were looking at the TV

572
00:27:58,520 --> 00:27:55,290
and I'll do the same thing very simple

573
00:28:01,490 --> 00:27:58,530
in my mind I'll open up a TV set and

574
00:28:04,130 --> 00:28:01,500
I'll just read what you're scanning and

575
00:28:05,810 --> 00:28:04,140
we did that and it worked and it was it

576
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:05,820
was kind of fun and so on

577
00:28:13,010 --> 00:28:09,210
and then somebody said it may have been

578
00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:13,020
Russell let's let's do that with some of

579
00:28:23,030 --> 00:28:14,820
the targets we haven't used this morning

580
00:28:26,780 --> 00:28:23,040
and he how did that he open one of the

581
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:26,790
envelopes and he gave it to me and under

582
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:29,520
the table I I looked at the scene that

583
00:28:34,970 --> 00:28:32,370
was there and it and I was supposed to

584
00:28:35,420 --> 00:28:34,980
again put it on a TV set and send it to

585
00:28:37,660 --> 00:28:35,430
URI

586
00:28:41,210 --> 00:28:37,670
well the scene was pretty complicated

587
00:28:44,030 --> 00:28:41,220
because it was a whale spouting so you

588
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:44,040
had the waves you had the whale and then

589
00:28:49,340 --> 00:28:45,840
you had the water jet on top of the

590
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:49,350
other way and so I did my best to send

591
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:52,170
that and Yuri said well what you're

592
00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:54,570
sending me is confusing I'm not getting

593
00:29:02,030 --> 00:28:58,490
anything clear can you resend it and

594
00:29:05,210 --> 00:29:02,040
behind him behind you know through the

595
00:29:07,850 --> 00:29:05,220
window of the cafeteria I could see a

596
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:07,860
water jet you know in the courtyard

597
00:29:14,810 --> 00:29:10,890
there was a fountain in the courtyard of

598
00:29:17,420 --> 00:29:14,820
SSRI and so I thought I'm going to send

599
00:29:20,450 --> 00:29:17,430
it in two things I'm going to send the

600
00:29:22,730 --> 00:29:20,460
whale change the century of fish I know

601
00:29:24,650 --> 00:29:22,740
where isn't the fish but you know I'm

602
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:24,660
going I'm going to send a fish and I'm

603
00:29:29,570 --> 00:29:27,090
going to send the water jet that I see

604
00:29:32,510 --> 00:29:29,580
through the window so I scanned the

605
00:29:36,260 --> 00:29:32,520
fountain and then I scan the fish you

606
00:29:39,919 --> 00:29:36,270
know like a question is very simple you

607
00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:39,929
know formulas of the fish and Geller

608
00:29:44,450 --> 00:29:41,940
said all of a sudden he was all business

609
00:29:47,180 --> 00:29:44,460
he took his pencil and he drew something

610
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:47,190
and he says look I'm going to draw it

611
00:29:51,019 --> 00:29:48,960
I'm getting but I'm not getting one

612
00:29:52,879 --> 00:29:51,029
thing I'm getting two things I'm getting

613
00:29:56,450 --> 00:29:52,889
the fish and then I'm getting a water

614
00:30:00,169 --> 00:29:56,460
jet so he drew the two things so to me

615
00:30:03,259 --> 00:30:00,179
that was the thing that remained you

616
00:30:04,519 --> 00:30:03,269
know as a proof because he didn't draw

617
00:30:07,999 --> 00:30:04,529
the target

618
00:30:10,869 --> 00:30:08,009
he drew what I sent him right and he had

619
00:30:14,629 --> 00:30:10,879
no way of knowing I mean you know a good

620
00:30:17,509 --> 00:30:14,639
prestidigitator might have looked at the

621
00:30:20,450 --> 00:30:17,519
targets ahead of time through the paper

622
00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:20,460
of the envelopes without opening the

623
00:30:24,859 --> 00:30:22,769
envelope you know Houdini used to do

624
00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:24,869
that he used to do that trick where he

625
00:30:29,570 --> 00:30:27,289
read the target through the envelope but

626
00:30:32,989 --> 00:30:29,580
there was no way he could have known

627
00:30:37,509 --> 00:30:32,999
that I did not send him the target I

628
00:30:42,019 --> 00:30:37,519
sent him to things that I made up and

629
00:30:45,769 --> 00:30:42,029
that's what he got so to me that was the

630
00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:45,779
proof of what URI could do and then he

631
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:48,480
ups the ante he says you know Jacques

632
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:51,360
the physical is really what it's about

633
00:30:56,239 --> 00:30:54,210
and he tell about the spoon bending

634
00:30:59,239 --> 00:30:56,249
story because I think that does take it

635
00:31:00,649 --> 00:30:59,249
when we take it beyond the mental now it

636
00:31:02,749 --> 00:31:00,659
goes into different place for people

637
00:31:05,090 --> 00:31:02,759
yeah he said you know that's not really

638
00:31:07,489 --> 00:31:05,100
what I do what I do is I deal with

639
00:31:10,239 --> 00:31:07,499
physical objects and he touched his

640
00:31:13,970 --> 00:31:10,249
spoon and the spoon folded in

641
00:31:15,409 --> 00:31:13,980
essentially in three not in two and this

642
00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:15,419
is at a restaurant this isn't like a

643
00:31:21,049 --> 00:31:17,369
prepared spoon that he has or anything

644
00:31:24,049 --> 00:31:21,059
like that well no we had been eating ice

645
00:31:25,940 --> 00:31:24,059
cream you know and you can't eat ice

646
00:31:30,830 --> 00:31:25,950
cream with a spoon that's bent all the

647
00:31:33,710 --> 00:31:30,840
way back so no this was and we all

648
00:31:38,210 --> 00:31:33,720
reacted to that and we all had the same

649
00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:38,220
spoon and I try to bend it the same way

650
00:31:45,289 --> 00:31:41,129
his spoon the spoon wasn't just bent it

651
00:31:48,109 --> 00:31:45,299
was just completely distorted you know

652
00:31:48,980 --> 00:31:48,119
as if it had been as if a bulldozer had

653
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:48,990
run over it

654
00:31:54,340 --> 00:31:52,370
it wasn't no I could bend the

655
00:31:57,070 --> 00:31:54,350
the part of the spoon that's the

656
00:31:59,590 --> 00:31:57,080
thinnest you know just just before the

657
00:32:02,740 --> 00:31:59,600
cup I could I could sort of bend that

658
00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:02,750
but the cup was bent and then everything

659
00:32:10,570 --> 00:32:05,840
else was twisted around and there was no

660
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:10,580
way I could have done that so so there

661
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:12,650
you are but to me the convincing thing

662
00:32:19,210 --> 00:32:16,490
was the part of the about the whale yes

663
00:32:22,990 --> 00:32:19,220
it was it showed that there was that we

664
00:32:25,210 --> 00:32:23,000
can in fact communicate mine to mine and

665
00:32:29,860 --> 00:32:25,220
by the way you know there is a book out

666
00:32:33,340 --> 00:32:29,870
called phenomena about the whole you

667
00:32:37,540 --> 00:32:33,350
know the whole history of SSRI and so on

668
00:32:39,670 --> 00:32:37,550
and it relates to it talks about Nazi

669
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:39,680
talks about all kinds of things about

670
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:43,610
porridge and it's not completely wrong

671
00:32:49,990 --> 00:32:47,120
but a lot of those experiments really

672
00:32:53,590 --> 00:32:50,000
didn't come from any of that and a lot

673
00:32:55,450 --> 00:32:53,600
of the tradition came actually from an

674
00:32:58,300 --> 00:32:55,460
organization that still exists in France

675
00:33:03,040 --> 00:32:58,310
and was working with people in in

676
00:33:08,830 --> 00:33:03,050
England and so on and there was a man

677
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:08,840
named Corey a wer Co Double L I er who

678
00:33:14,470 --> 00:33:11,450
did those experiments in the early 20th

679
00:33:18,190 --> 00:33:14,480
century and it mostly in France and he's

680
00:33:20,140 --> 00:33:18,200
published on that and the Ingo Swann and

681
00:33:23,290 --> 00:33:20,150
bootephant so and were very familiar

682
00:33:25,030 --> 00:33:23,300
with that work and that's where a lot of

683
00:33:27,250 --> 00:33:25,040
the early experiments and I thought I

684
00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:27,260
came from they didn't come from Puharich

685
00:33:32,020 --> 00:33:29,360
and they certainly didn't come from the

686
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:32,030
you know from Hitler and the Germans and

687
00:33:37,060 --> 00:33:34,610
all that stuff so I think that record

688
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:37,070
should be corrected but that's where the

689
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:40,310
the diary is is a good record because

690
00:33:45,550 --> 00:33:43,250
you can go back to the archival material

691
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:45,560
and you can see what actually happened

692
00:33:52,180 --> 00:33:48,170
and because it's written down day by day

693
00:33:56,050 --> 00:33:52,190
you know I had a historian once came to

694
00:33:59,320 --> 00:33:56,060
me came to see me and he wanted to

695
00:34:01,960 --> 00:33:59,330
interview me about the mouse the

696
00:34:04,420 --> 00:34:01,970
invention of the mouse you know which

697
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:04,430
you have now you know with your computer

698
00:34:09,450 --> 00:34:05,890
well they that comes

699
00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:09,460
and I said well you know there are a lot

700
00:34:13,710 --> 00:34:11,440
of people who were there at the time and

701
00:34:17,399 --> 00:34:13,720
could could tell you about what happened

702
00:34:21,090 --> 00:34:17,409
and he said yeah I can interview them

703
00:34:23,849 --> 00:34:21,100
but you wrote about it at the time and

704
00:34:27,930 --> 00:34:23,859
that's why as a historian that's the

705
00:34:31,530 --> 00:34:27,940
record I want and because I was an SR I

706
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:31,540
in in the project that had invented the

707
00:34:35,550 --> 00:34:33,490
mouse had nothing to do with it I mean

708
00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:35,560
they had invented it you know many years

709
00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:39,280
before and but people still believe that

710
00:34:45,540 --> 00:34:42,720
Apple invented the mouse or maybe Xerox

711
00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:45,550
was invented a long time before

712
00:34:51,450 --> 00:34:48,310
well you're right in saying that that's

713
00:34:55,349 --> 00:34:51,460
what comes through in the Diaries and in

714
00:34:57,359 --> 00:34:55,359
the loose form that they are but let me

715
00:34:58,890 --> 00:34:57,369
switch gears only slightly I think it

716
00:35:01,470 --> 00:34:58,900
leads right back to that in a way

717
00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:01,480
because for folks who are familiar with

718
00:35:04,890 --> 00:35:02,710
your work one of the biggest

719
00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:04,900
contributions you've made to the UFO

720
00:35:11,970 --> 00:35:09,280
field is pushing the field to look

721
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:11,980
beyond the flying saucer thing which you

722
00:35:17,810 --> 00:35:14,050
just mentioned a minute ago and you were

723
00:35:21,900 --> 00:35:17,820
the first to suggest look for the UFO

724
00:35:23,250 --> 00:35:21,910
extended consciousness link and point of

725
00:35:25,410 --> 00:35:23,260
and you pointed folks towards all the

726
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:25,420
possible connections between UFOs and

727
00:35:30,030 --> 00:35:28,240
the paranormal and strangeness in all

728
00:35:34,050 --> 00:35:30,040
sorts of different ways and that has

729
00:35:38,460 --> 00:35:34,060
certainly become very much the paradigm

730
00:35:41,609 --> 00:35:38,470
that's invoke but I sometimes have to

731
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:41,619
wonder if some people are taking that

732
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:45,010
too far I mean we do still have some

733
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:48,850
very good reliable reports of flying

734
00:35:53,370 --> 00:35:51,520
saucers that are observed by people on

735
00:35:56,849 --> 00:35:53,380
the ground and the air we see them on

736
00:35:59,670 --> 00:35:56,859
radar we see physical traces of them we

737
00:36:01,650 --> 00:35:59,680
talk to people like uri geller who you

738
00:36:03,359 --> 00:36:01,660
just mentioned and he says something

739
00:36:03,990 --> 00:36:03,369
stunning that's right there in your

740
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:04,000
diary

741
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:06,970
he says Jacque I don't have any power of

742
00:36:12,330 --> 00:36:10,570
my own I get it all from the saucers or

743
00:36:13,859 --> 00:36:12,340
then you go over to the remote viewing

744
00:36:16,250 --> 00:36:13,869
group that we're talking about Ingo

745
00:36:18,650 --> 00:36:16,260
Swann and the rest and they are viewing

746
00:36:21,770 --> 00:36:18,660
alien spacecraft

747
00:36:24,530 --> 00:36:21,780
on another planet through you know

748
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:24,540
another means of this extended

749
00:36:30,860 --> 00:36:26,880
consciousness realm called remote

750
00:36:33,620 --> 00:36:30,870
viewing so I'm totally open to the UFO

751
00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:33,630
consciousness link but I have to wonder

752
00:36:40,580 --> 00:36:37,760
if it really is this either-or situation

753
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:40,590
the way that it's sometimes portrayed

754
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:43,170
and I'd love to hear your thoughts in

755
00:36:50,420 --> 00:36:47,330
general about all that well one of the

756
00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:50,430
characteristics of science is that in

757
00:37:00,890 --> 00:36:57,770
order to move forward it has essentially

758
00:37:03,980 --> 00:37:00,900
compartmentalized different fields and

759
00:37:06,740 --> 00:37:03,990
even though you know in a big university

760
00:37:09,790 --> 00:37:06,750
you have biologists and they don't talk

761
00:37:12,350 --> 00:37:09,800
to doctors and doctors don't talk to the

762
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:12,360
pharmacy people and the pharmacy people

763
00:37:16,340 --> 00:37:14,250
don't talk to the computer people and

764
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:16,350
the computer people don't talk to the

765
00:37:21,220 --> 00:37:19,200
chemists and a big part of modern

766
00:37:25,010 --> 00:37:21,230
science has to do with you know

767
00:37:27,950 --> 00:37:25,020
translational science where you build

768
00:37:30,290 --> 00:37:27,960
bridges across those disciplines and of

769
00:37:32,030 --> 00:37:30,300
course the you know consciousness has

770
00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:32,040
always be in the province of

771
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:34,680
psychologists you know psychologists

772
00:37:40,970 --> 00:37:36,480
have done most of the work in

773
00:37:43,820 --> 00:37:40,980
parapsychology and you know in the

774
00:37:45,700 --> 00:37:43,830
Skinner and and other people and of

775
00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:45,710
course Cal young and so on where

776
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:48,710
psychiatrists they were MDS or they were

777
00:37:55,220 --> 00:37:52,170
psychologists in the meantime you know

778
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:55,230
the physicists were saying you know what

779
00:38:00,620 --> 00:37:58,560
I study in my lab is matter you know

780
00:38:02,540 --> 00:38:00,630
atoms and molecules and fields and

781
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:02,550
things like that don't bother me with

782
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:05,730
your dreams you know your nightmares and

783
00:38:09,830 --> 00:38:07,680
so on that's let's get right up into my

784
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:09,840
work you know give me something I can

785
00:38:16,340 --> 00:38:13,680
measure I can wait and the problem is

786
00:38:19,850 --> 00:38:16,350
that increasingly we're running into

787
00:38:23,420 --> 00:38:19,860
phenomena that don't agree you know to

788
00:38:26,780 --> 00:38:23,430
be put into little boxes like that they

789
00:38:30,170 --> 00:38:26,790
you know including including human

790
00:38:32,359 --> 00:38:30,180
beings I mean human beings we have you

791
00:38:34,789 --> 00:38:32,369
know nice and

792
00:38:37,450 --> 00:38:34,799
physical reality and you know I think

793
00:38:40,220 --> 00:38:37,460
I'm I'm physical you know when I

794
00:38:44,660 --> 00:38:40,230
certainly when I hit my head you know it

795
00:38:47,749 --> 00:38:44,670
it hurts and it's it's there but at the

796
00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:47,759
same time we cannot continue to ignore

797
00:38:52,819 --> 00:38:49,230
consciousness because consciousness

798
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:52,829
shows up in quantum mechanics it shows

799
00:38:58,930 --> 00:38:56,490
up in entanglement it shows up in all

800
00:39:01,579 --> 00:38:58,940
kinds of things that physics has been

801
00:39:03,559 --> 00:39:01,589
you know worried with in the last

802
00:39:08,049 --> 00:39:03,569
certainly in the last 10 years in the

803
00:39:11,059 --> 00:39:08,059
last 5 years and all that is an part of

804
00:39:15,380 --> 00:39:11,069
official physics yet in terms of being

805
00:39:18,259 --> 00:39:15,390
taught everywhere and but that's clearly

806
00:39:21,739 --> 00:39:18,269
where the next breakthroughs in physics

807
00:39:24,230 --> 00:39:21,749
are going to be so in a way studying

808
00:39:29,329 --> 00:39:24,240
this phenomena both parapsychology and

809
00:39:33,140 --> 00:39:29,339
the UFO phenomenon is it's just a you

810
00:39:36,019 --> 00:39:33,150
know a way it's a you know glorious way

811
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:36,029
into what physics is going to be for the

812
00:39:42,859 --> 00:39:40,170
next 50 years well maybe I guess I have

813
00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:42,869
my reservations because physics is known

814
00:39:46,700 --> 00:39:44,609
about this for the last 50 years and

815
00:39:49,339 --> 00:39:46,710
back to the willful ignorance

816
00:39:51,940 --> 00:39:49,349
I mean physics has known the observer

817
00:39:54,499 --> 00:39:51,950
effect for example they've known

818
00:39:57,710 --> 00:39:54,509
entanglement they've done the shut up

819
00:40:00,410 --> 00:39:57,720
and calculate thing for the last 50

820
00:40:03,950 --> 00:40:00,420
years which is ok shut up and calculate

821
00:40:06,559 --> 00:40:03,960
works for creating awesome networks and

822
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:06,569
iPhones and computers and all that stuff

823
00:40:12,259 --> 00:40:08,249
but it doesn't answer the deeper

824
00:40:15,859 --> 00:40:12,269
philosophical questions and I think also

825
00:40:18,829 --> 00:40:15,869
what you're suggesting and I would agree

826
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:18,839
with is that science has to a certain

827
00:40:24,339 --> 00:40:21,930
extent obsoleted itself it said ok there

828
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:24,349
really are these limits to what we can

829
00:40:31,549 --> 00:40:27,930
measure what we can observe what we can

830
00:40:34,549 --> 00:40:31,559
call reality so getting back to your

831
00:40:38,410 --> 00:40:34,559
work though what I worry about is that

832
00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:38,420
when I hear people use your work as a

833
00:40:45,270 --> 00:40:42,089
manifesto against little gray men in

834
00:40:47,220 --> 00:40:45,280
spaceships from other planets because

835
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:47,230
I don't know how you get around that

836
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:49,090
data I don't know how you get around

837
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:51,970
that data cross-culturally you know you

838
00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:56,050
go talk to a Native American art e6

839
00:41:00,570 --> 00:40:57,730
killer Clark like I did on this show

840
00:41:03,599 --> 00:41:00,580
who's interviewed PhD dr. rt6 killer

841
00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:03,609
Clark who has interviewed you know 2,000

842
00:41:08,430 --> 00:41:06,160
Native Americans both in North America

843
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:08,440
and South America and they all say yeah

844
00:41:13,460 --> 00:41:10,330
there's star people from another planet

845
00:41:17,940 --> 00:41:13,470
those reports are over and over again in

846
00:41:20,430 --> 00:41:17,950
you know sociology if you just go go

847
00:41:23,820 --> 00:41:20,440
look in anthropology if you just go look

848
00:41:27,870 --> 00:41:23,830
so is it really an either/or thing is it

849
00:41:31,140 --> 00:41:27,880
really we can't have the spaceships in

850
00:41:34,050 --> 00:41:31,150
the little gray men and the extended

851
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:34,060
consciousness strangeness or are they

852
00:41:40,470 --> 00:41:37,810
perhaps somehow both on the table both

853
00:41:44,550 --> 00:41:40,480
happening in ways that we haven't quite

854
00:41:46,980 --> 00:41:44,560
pulled apart yet well they are both and

855
00:41:50,190 --> 00:41:46,990
that's what I've been arguing that you

856
00:41:52,589 --> 00:41:50,200
have to get out of these little boxes

857
00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:52,599
you know physics on my left and in

858
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:54,640
psychology on my right you can't do that

859
00:41:59,790 --> 00:41:56,890
but you cannot do that in dealing with

860
00:42:02,270 --> 00:41:59,800
UFOs but what I'm saying is that you

861
00:42:05,849 --> 00:42:02,280
cannot do that anymore in dealing with

862
00:42:09,630 --> 00:42:05,859
astrophysics right I mean the the

863
00:42:14,460 --> 00:42:09,640
problem that scientists have today is

864
00:42:16,980 --> 00:42:14,470
that time and space the way we were

865
00:42:20,070 --> 00:42:16,990
thinking about them don't make sense

866
00:42:23,310 --> 00:42:20,080
when you begin to deal with particle

867
00:42:26,010 --> 00:42:23,320
entanglement and with entanglement of

868
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:26,020
larger you know of larger physical

869
00:42:30,900 --> 00:42:28,930
things so we're getting we're going to

870
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:30,910
get to the same place eventually and

871
00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:34,570
what I've been doing quietly the the

872
00:42:44,310 --> 00:42:38,880
last couple of years is looking at

873
00:42:48,270 --> 00:42:44,320
things left behind after UFO encounters

874
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:48,280
as to close Close Encounters and I'm

875
00:42:54,270 --> 00:42:50,490
talking about things that were either

876
00:42:58,330 --> 00:42:54,280
found you know after the UFO had landed

877
00:43:01,990 --> 00:42:58,340
or in addition to the part

878
00:43:05,620 --> 00:43:02,000
seasons one and things that were ejected

879
00:43:09,430 --> 00:43:05,630
from us was in flight there are a number

880
00:43:12,820 --> 00:43:09,440
of cases that this weather the witnesses

881
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:12,830
are describing a disc that seems to be

882
00:43:21,250 --> 00:43:15,200
shaking seems to be about to explode and

883
00:43:23,740 --> 00:43:21,260
he gets stabilized by other objects that

884
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:23,750
come around it and then it exact some

885
00:43:28,870 --> 00:43:26,330
material in fusion there is a celebrated

886
00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:28,880
case like that Council Bluffs

887
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:33,200
in the suburb of Omaha that where people

888
00:43:37,570 --> 00:43:35,690
were able to pick up the material

889
00:43:40,150 --> 00:43:37,580
immediately and the police was there and

890
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:40,160
there were 11 witnesses and so on so

891
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:42,410
I've recovered a number of those of

892
00:43:48,340 --> 00:43:46,730
those artifacts and the there were two

893
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:48,350
problems with that

894
00:43:52,330 --> 00:43:51,290
that have sort of plagued the research

895
00:43:54,610 --> 00:43:52,340
for a long time

896
00:43:57,720 --> 00:43:54,620
first it's difficult to get access to

897
00:44:00,670 --> 00:43:57,730
that because either people throw it away

898
00:44:02,620 --> 00:44:00,680
so you know something happened but you

899
00:44:04,990 --> 00:44:02,630
know they didn't keep it because some

900
00:44:08,370 --> 00:44:05,000
scientists told them oh it's just an

901
00:44:11,620 --> 00:44:08,380
ordinary stone so that's great away or

902
00:44:14,470 --> 00:44:11,630
they keep it as a family heirloom and

903
00:44:17,020 --> 00:44:14,480
they won't let you you know borrow it

904
00:44:19,810 --> 00:44:17,030
there's a case I've been talking to

905
00:44:22,500 --> 00:44:19,820
people a new phone about an artifact

906
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:22,510
that they have but you know I cannot

907
00:44:28,750 --> 00:44:26,330
they won't let me analyze even a little

908
00:44:31,390 --> 00:44:28,760
part of it because oh you know that's so

909
00:44:33,130 --> 00:44:31,400
you know precious and so on well you

910
00:44:37,210 --> 00:44:33,140
know it's about time that science looked

911
00:44:41,590 --> 00:44:37,220
at this and fortunately I'm just getting

912
00:44:44,050 --> 00:44:41,600
three of these cases analyzed from from

913
00:44:47,230 --> 00:44:44,060
France where people are sending me the

914
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:47,240
actual sample the actual specimen most

915
00:44:53,590 --> 00:44:50,930
of that is metal and the other thing

916
00:44:57,010 --> 00:44:53,600
that was very difficult was went beyond

917
00:44:59,620 --> 00:44:57,020
chemical analysis it was very hard to

918
00:45:02,530 --> 00:44:59,630
get access to a machine where we could

919
00:45:07,180 --> 00:45:02,540
look at the isotopes and now those

920
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:07,190
machines are because I have access to at

921
00:45:11,650 --> 00:45:09,770
least two different machines right here

922
00:45:13,569 --> 00:45:11,660
in Silicon Valley because I'm 20

923
00:45:16,839 --> 00:45:13,579
connected with the you know the

924
00:45:19,420 --> 00:45:16,849
high-tech community and including one

925
00:45:22,420 --> 00:45:19,430
company that I financed as a venture

926
00:45:25,089 --> 00:45:22,430
capitalist so I have access to their

927
00:45:27,130 --> 00:45:25,099
engineers and these are not only do they

928
00:45:28,839 --> 00:45:27,140
have a machine but they've built the

929
00:45:31,599 --> 00:45:28,849
machine so I have access to the people

930
00:45:34,809 --> 00:45:31,609
who have actually engineered the

931
00:45:37,690 --> 00:45:34,819
instrument and we can begin to look at

932
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:37,700
this and what we're finding is very

933
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:40,130
preliminary that it's absolutely

934
00:45:44,980 --> 00:45:42,890
fascinating because we're not finding

935
00:45:47,109 --> 00:45:44,990
what we thought we would find you know

936
00:45:49,779 --> 00:45:47,119
we would slide either that the materials

937
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:49,789
were terrestrial and by the way when you

938
00:45:53,859 --> 00:45:51,440
look at the isotopes it doesn't lie

939
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:53,869
because it's you can look at the ratios

940
00:46:01,329 --> 00:45:58,400
of the actual different types of

941
00:46:05,500 --> 00:46:01,339
aluminum for example of magnesium that

942
00:46:07,779 --> 00:46:05,510
is in the in the sample and and you can

943
00:46:11,170 --> 00:46:07,789
look at the ratios of the abundance of

944
00:46:14,890 --> 00:46:11,180
different isotopes of the same metal of

945
00:46:19,150 --> 00:46:14,900
the same element and so either it should

946
00:46:21,930 --> 00:46:19,160
be terrestrial which we can find out

947
00:46:24,700 --> 00:46:21,940
very quickly or it could be

948
00:46:27,490 --> 00:46:24,710
extraterrestrial in which case you would

949
00:46:30,940 --> 00:46:27,500
expect they would vary by a few percent

950
00:46:32,890 --> 00:46:30,950
from the standard ratio and you know

951
00:46:36,220 --> 00:46:32,900
most of those machines are mass

952
00:46:38,980 --> 00:46:36,230
spectrometers and they are used by often

953
00:46:42,490 --> 00:46:38,990
used by geologists and other people who

954
00:46:44,890 --> 00:46:42,500
look at meteorites meteorites are

955
00:46:49,180 --> 00:46:44,900
extraterrestrial and they don't have the

956
00:46:51,730 --> 00:46:49,190
same ratio of isotopes that you do if

957
00:46:54,670 --> 00:46:51,740
you pick up you know a piece of iron on

958
00:46:56,859 --> 00:46:54,680
on earth so they are used to looking at

959
00:46:58,870 --> 00:46:56,869
ratios that are little bit different but

960
00:47:02,640 --> 00:46:58,880
what we find is ratios that are a

961
00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:02,650
hundred percent off and that is

962
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:05,839
completely new and that is something

963
00:47:10,990 --> 00:47:08,210
that break then break that down a little

964
00:47:14,250 --> 00:47:11,000
bit I think everyone will follow that

965
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:14,260
that terrestrial objects have a certain

966
00:47:20,650 --> 00:47:18,400
ratio correlation between the isotopes

967
00:47:22,930 --> 00:47:20,660
extraterrestrial meteors have a

968
00:47:25,309 --> 00:47:22,940
different set of ratios that are

969
00:47:28,569 --> 00:47:25,319
slightly off and then you run a

970
00:47:33,259 --> 00:47:28,579
this material and what is it telling you

971
00:47:36,859 --> 00:47:33,269
so in a number of cases including a

972
00:47:40,069 --> 00:47:36,869
celebrated case at ubatuba in brazil and

973
00:47:44,329 --> 00:47:40,079
a couple of other cases we are beginning

974
00:47:48,349 --> 00:47:44,339
to find material that is completely of

975
00:47:51,859 --> 00:47:48,359
the natural ratios and this does not

976
00:47:53,359 --> 00:47:51,869
mean that it comes from you know star

977
00:47:56,079 --> 00:47:53,369
somewhere in our galaxy

978
00:47:59,329 --> 00:47:56,089
because the galaxy was formed from

979
00:48:01,849 --> 00:47:59,339
essentially the same material condensing

980
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:01,859
the same material from you know from

981
00:48:07,249 --> 00:48:04,130
styles of the particular generation

982
00:48:09,829 --> 00:48:07,259
condensing into the metals and the

983
00:48:12,620 --> 00:48:09,839
elements that we have around us today so

984
00:48:15,469 --> 00:48:12,630
yeah there is a variation between the

985
00:48:18,499 --> 00:48:15,479
way the earth was formed and the way say

986
00:48:21,079 --> 00:48:18,509
Pluto was formed so you'd expect the

987
00:48:22,910 --> 00:48:21,089
meteorites for example to be somewhat

988
00:48:25,099 --> 00:48:22,920
different and of course all the

989
00:48:27,799 --> 00:48:25,109
differences are very interesting but

990
00:48:29,989 --> 00:48:27,809
that's not what we find what we find is

991
00:48:33,349 --> 00:48:29,999
that first some of the isotopes are

992
00:48:36,140 --> 00:48:33,359
missing the isotopes are in on

993
00:48:38,809 --> 00:48:36,150
completely different ratios some of them

994
00:48:43,069 --> 00:48:38,819
are double the percentage that they

995
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:43,079
should be and what that what that could

996
00:48:50,620 --> 00:48:45,930
indicate is that somebody has taken that

997
00:48:53,809 --> 00:48:50,630
material separated the isotopes and then

998
00:48:55,670 --> 00:48:53,819
re-engineered the material so if we can

999
00:48:58,219 --> 00:48:55,680
confirm that and again this is very

1000
00:49:00,559 --> 00:48:58,229
preliminary and you can't just do that

1001
00:49:03,799 --> 00:49:00,569
by running it in one machine you have to

1002
00:49:07,519 --> 00:49:03,809
find so I was I I presented that

1003
00:49:10,549 --> 00:49:07,529
material in France couple of months ago

1004
00:49:13,069 --> 00:49:10,559
because I want to get access to labs in

1005
00:49:15,829 --> 00:49:13,079
France this should be done completely

1006
00:49:19,009 --> 00:49:15,839
away from the intelligence people from

1007
00:49:22,130 --> 00:49:19,019
the military people it should be that in

1008
00:49:24,499 --> 00:49:22,140
the academic labs completely open and

1009
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:24,509
the witnesses should be invited to the

1010
00:49:30,349 --> 00:49:27,650
net to prove that I'm not you know

1011
00:49:33,469 --> 00:49:30,359
substituting some strange thing that

1012
00:49:35,180 --> 00:49:33,479
this is actually their material and you

1013
00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:35,190
know there is no reason not to do that

1014
00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:37,730
openly and

1015
00:49:45,450 --> 00:49:39,920
and to return the material to them we

1016
00:49:48,810 --> 00:49:45,460
don't need to keep it the it you know

1017
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:48,820
especially for things that come from

1018
00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:52,690
1947 in 1947 the only people who could

1019
00:49:58,690 --> 00:49:55,250
separate the isotopes were the atomic

1020
00:50:02,590 --> 00:49:58,700
people separating uranium-235

1021
00:50:05,849 --> 00:50:02,600
from uranium 238 you know - which is

1022
00:50:07,780 --> 00:50:05,859
what the Iran is doing now with the

1023
00:50:10,510 --> 00:50:07,790
centrifuge and you know the whole

1024
00:50:13,930 --> 00:50:10,520
business about the atom bomb in Iran and

1025
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:13,940
so on you separate the isotopes and then

1026
00:50:21,190 --> 00:50:18,290
you you you you build something new

1027
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:21,200
because of new physical properties the

1028
00:50:26,890 --> 00:50:23,690
but that you know why would you go

1029
00:50:29,620 --> 00:50:26,900
around doing that for magnesium or for

1030
00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:29,630
iron ore for things of that type and

1031
00:50:34,510 --> 00:50:31,910
that's what we find it's as if somebody

1032
00:50:37,300 --> 00:50:34,520
had separated those isotopes and then

1033
00:50:39,820 --> 00:50:37,310
recombine them to build a material that

1034
00:50:42,609 --> 00:50:39,830
we find so if we can confirm that

1035
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:42,619
and again the qualifier is we're really

1036
00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:45,530
at the very beginning of that but you

1037
00:50:50,890 --> 00:50:48,710
know that's this is material mean this

1038
00:50:53,140 --> 00:50:50,900
is material science this is not

1039
00:50:55,660 --> 00:50:53,150
parapsychology this is not you know

1040
00:51:00,520 --> 00:50:55,670
somebody dreaming this is not you know

1041
00:51:02,980 --> 00:51:00,530
something from hypnotic regression of an

1042
00:51:04,810 --> 00:51:02,990
abductee or something not to put any of

1043
00:51:11,890 --> 00:51:04,820
that stuff down right I mean just to

1044
00:51:14,740 --> 00:51:11,900
make clear the difference I have I I did

1045
00:51:18,010 --> 00:51:14,750
it as a PowerPoint presentation that are

1046
00:51:20,590 --> 00:51:18,020
given in a couple of places trying to

1047
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:20,600
get scientists interested in in looking

1048
00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:23,450
at that material with us because we need

1049
00:51:29,290 --> 00:51:25,760
we need help I mean and there are

1050
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:29,300
experts in that stuff and the question

1051
00:51:33,370 --> 00:51:31,010
is how much would it cost to do

1052
00:51:36,250 --> 00:51:33,380
something like that and it looks like

1053
00:51:38,380 --> 00:51:36,260
you know this would be billions of

1054
00:51:40,810 --> 00:51:38,390
dollars if we did it with today's

1055
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:40,820
technology but maybe somebody has a

1056
00:51:47,140 --> 00:51:42,530
different way of doing it

1057
00:51:49,060 --> 00:51:47,150
and so this is at the heart of so there

1058
00:51:51,410 --> 00:51:49,070
are two there are three things that you

1059
00:51:54,530 --> 00:51:51,420
get if you want to talk about this

1060
00:51:58,549 --> 00:51:54,540
physics three things that we that we get

1061
00:52:00,260 --> 00:51:58,559
that people claim the implants and I've

1062
00:52:03,380 --> 00:52:00,270
stayed away from that because I'm not a

1063
00:52:06,170 --> 00:52:03,390
biologist this is not my field but I

1064
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:06,180
followed it it's very interesting and of

1065
00:52:12,260 --> 00:52:09,210
course we can get those implants and we

1066
00:52:14,059 --> 00:52:12,270
can study it dr. layers that started

1067
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:14,069
doing that and you know other people

1068
00:52:20,599 --> 00:52:17,250
have become involved there is very

1069
00:52:22,789 --> 00:52:20,609
complex and then there are claims that

1070
00:52:23,690 --> 00:52:22,799
of course entire craft have been

1071
00:52:26,750 --> 00:52:23,700
recovered

1072
00:52:28,990 --> 00:52:26,760
that was where like other places and are

1073
00:52:31,910 --> 00:52:29,000
being kept in somebody's basement and

1074
00:52:34,849 --> 00:52:31,920
yeah I become convinced that some of

1075
00:52:36,309 --> 00:52:34,859
that is true I've had people coming to

1076
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:36,319
me usually in the dead of the night

1077
00:52:43,789 --> 00:52:39,690
saying you know I was approached to

1078
00:52:46,910 --> 00:52:43,799
study that and yes it's true and we

1079
00:52:48,859 --> 00:52:46,920
couldn't figure out what that was one of

1080
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:48,869
these people I can talk about because

1081
00:52:53,260 --> 00:52:49,530
he's dead

1082
00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:53,270
was Marshall Vogel who was an IBM

1083
00:53:00,500 --> 00:52:56,730
special fellow Martha Vogel is

1084
00:53:03,770 --> 00:53:00,510
responsible for building for billions of

1085
00:53:07,329 --> 00:53:03,780
dollars of revenue to IBM in the days of

1086
00:53:11,359 --> 00:53:07,339
magnetic data you know magnetic

1087
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:11,369
deposition on tapes and disks and he was

1088
00:53:15,770 --> 00:53:12,960
approached by the government to look at

1089
00:53:17,870 --> 00:53:15,780
parts of something that had crashed so

1090
00:53:20,089 --> 00:53:17,880
we know these people exist we know the

1091
00:53:22,819 --> 00:53:20,099
staff exist but I don't have access to

1092
00:53:26,630 --> 00:53:22,829
it I mean the government doesn't invite

1093
00:53:29,030 --> 00:53:26,640
me to go into that basement but

1094
00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:29,040
eventually that stuff has got to come

1095
00:53:35,329 --> 00:53:32,250
out but when I do have is people coming

1096
00:53:38,930 --> 00:53:35,339
to me and saying look you know I I I saw

1097
00:53:41,750 --> 00:53:38,940
this in a field last night in France

1098
00:53:44,539 --> 00:53:41,760
somewhere and you know it injected this

1099
00:53:47,089 --> 00:53:44,549
material and here it is and you can have

1100
00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:47,099
it you can take it to a lab and and tell

1101
00:53:51,319 --> 00:53:49,440
me what you find so that stuff you know

1102
00:53:53,420 --> 00:53:51,329
I can do on my own I don't need

1103
00:53:54,549 --> 00:53:53,430
anybody's permission so that's what I'm

1104
00:53:57,620 --> 00:53:54,559
going to continue doing

1105
00:53:59,180 --> 00:53:57,630
it's just saying and you know dr. villa

1106
00:54:00,799 --> 00:53:59,190
you mentioned a couple times in there

1107
00:54:03,750 --> 00:54:00,809
the government

1108
00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:03,760
you mentioned the military the

1109
00:54:08,070 --> 00:54:06,250
term deep state doesn't appear anywhere

1110
00:54:11,850 --> 00:54:08,080
in your journals because that's just a

1111
00:54:14,970 --> 00:54:11,860
newly coined phrase but the idea of a

1112
00:54:17,610 --> 00:54:14,980
force that's lurking in the shadows kind

1113
00:54:19,710 --> 00:54:17,620
of shows up again and again and again

1114
00:54:22,140 --> 00:54:19,720
I'd go all the way back as we wind this

1115
00:54:25,770 --> 00:54:22,150
thing down to the foreword of the very

1116
00:54:30,030 --> 00:54:25,780
first volume there's only one sentence

1117
00:54:33,090 --> 00:54:30,040
that's bolded and the sentence reads the

1118
00:54:36,300 --> 00:54:33,100
major revelation of these Diaries may be

1119
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:36,310
the demonstration of how the scientific

1120
00:54:41,550 --> 00:54:38,890
community was misled by the government

1121
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:41,560
how the best data were kept hidden and

1122
00:54:49,350 --> 00:54:45,330
how the public record was shamelessly

1123
00:54:52,290 --> 00:54:49,360
manipulated so I want to know do you

1124
00:54:54,900 --> 00:54:52,300
think you you seem very optimistic and I

1125
00:54:57,030 --> 00:54:54,910
love the idea of what you just outlined

1126
00:55:00,060 --> 00:54:57,040
there is fantastic in terms of the

1127
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:00,070
potential research can we really talk

1128
00:55:06,540 --> 00:55:02,370
about any of it without talking about

1129
00:55:09,660 --> 00:55:06,550
the deep state overlay and what they're

1130
00:55:12,740 --> 00:55:09,670
doing or can we just say don't worry

1131
00:55:16,500 --> 00:55:12,750
about it just go do our own thing well

1132
00:55:21,300 --> 00:55:16,510
two things that made me surprise you one

1133
00:55:23,970 --> 00:55:21,310
is some of that if we knew might be

1134
00:55:29,370 --> 00:55:23,980
legitimate oh it might have been

1135
00:55:31,830 --> 00:55:29,380
legitimate at one time so I'm not going

1136
00:55:36,030 --> 00:55:31,840
to you know bang on the door of the

1137
00:55:40,260 --> 00:55:36,040
Pentagon saying shame on you and so on I

1138
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:40,270
want to understand deeply you know what

1139
00:55:50,460 --> 00:55:46,210
has been going on and that's know that's

1140
00:55:52,830 --> 00:55:50,470
something that we have to sort of keep

1141
00:55:54,450 --> 00:55:52,840
working on I think eventually the

1142
00:55:57,060 --> 00:55:54,460
information will come out because the

1143
00:55:59,490 --> 00:55:57,070
phenomenon is global and it cannot be

1144
00:56:03,930 --> 00:55:59,500
controlled so I'm looking at this with

1145
00:56:06,390 --> 00:56:03,940
the reason I I'm still optimistic well

1146
00:56:10,260 --> 00:56:06,400
you know it's my nature I'm an optimist

1147
00:56:13,370 --> 00:56:10,270
and I also try to keep my sense of humor

1148
00:56:16,740 --> 00:56:13,380
the phenomenon is in control and

1149
00:56:20,580 --> 00:56:16,750
whatever it is and

1150
00:56:24,180 --> 00:56:20,590
there is no way you can classify it's

1151
00:56:27,270 --> 00:56:24,190
something that happens in pasture in you

1152
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:27,280
know in the South of France or in in

1153
00:56:31,650 --> 00:56:29,770
Ireland somewhere and if these people

1154
00:56:35,310 --> 00:56:31,660
pick up some material and they want to

1155
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:35,320
bring it to me you know I don't know who

1156
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:39,970
can write so I really believe that we're

1157
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:42,850
going to have enough things to to work

1158
00:56:48,810 --> 00:56:46,090
out what irritates me about the USO you

1159
00:56:52,740 --> 00:56:48,820
know believers the UFO community is that

1160
00:56:55,470 --> 00:56:52,750
it you know a lot of people sit in their

1161
00:56:57,630 --> 00:56:55,480
chair arguing about what should be done

1162
00:56:59,250 --> 00:56:57,640
and what the government should do in the

1163
00:57:01,590 --> 00:56:59,260
meantime there is a lot of stuff out

1164
00:57:03,570 --> 00:57:01,600
there that we have access to that

1165
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:03,580
nobody's looking at and there are a lot

1166
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:06,970
of things that we could do and that we

1167
00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:10,930
could have done that is urgent you know

1168
00:57:17,490 --> 00:57:14,160
that nobody is going to start you from

1169
00:57:20,370 --> 00:57:17,500
building a database looking at

1170
00:57:22,410 --> 00:57:20,380
statistics getting in your car and going

1171
00:57:24,420 --> 00:57:22,420
out and talking to those witnesses and

1172
00:57:25,020 --> 00:57:24,430
finding out what's true and what's not

1173
00:57:27,930 --> 00:57:25,030
true

1174
00:57:30,540 --> 00:57:27,940
and you know it's still 90% of those

1175
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:30,550
reports we can explain so let's not

1176
00:57:35,580 --> 00:57:32,770
forget that we see those dutiful

1177
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:35,590
statistics about thousands of cases a

1178
00:57:40,980 --> 00:57:38,650
month but only a few of those are really

1179
00:57:43,620 --> 00:57:40,990
valid well somebody needs to go out

1180
00:57:45,210 --> 00:57:43,630
there and find out so there are a lot of

1181
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:45,220
all those things we can do and we don't

1182
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:47,170
need to ask government commission to do

1183
00:57:52,470 --> 00:57:49,450
it you know Silicon Valley doesn't ask

1184
00:57:55,590 --> 00:57:52,480
the government permission to go build

1185
00:57:59,390 --> 00:57:55,600
something to a large extent the internet

1186
00:58:01,860 --> 00:57:59,400
was built by you know people just

1187
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:01,870
linking their computer to the net and

1188
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:04,330
going out and doing something new nobody

1189
00:58:10,650 --> 00:58:06,610
has permission to develop the World Wide

1190
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:10,660
Web you know some kid in Switzerland did

1191
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:12,850
that without asking anybody's permission

1192
00:58:17,670 --> 00:58:16,090
he just quoted it they released it let's

1193
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:17,680
talk about that for a minute because the

1194
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:20,410
other thing that shines through in these

1195
00:58:25,130 --> 00:58:22,450
Diaries and more broadly just in your

1196
00:58:28,950 --> 00:58:25,140
career for anyone who looks at it is

1197
00:58:30,330 --> 00:58:28,960
you're very practical and you're also

1198
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:30,340
have

1199
00:58:35,850 --> 00:58:33,010
figured out the money thing if you will

1200
00:58:39,090 --> 00:58:35,860
in a way that a lot of scientists don't

1201
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:39,100
you're super successful as a computer

1202
00:58:43,500 --> 00:58:40,810
scientist could have made a fantastic

1203
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:43,510
career just with that very successful as

1204
00:58:46,530 --> 00:58:44,650
an author could have made a fantastic

1205
00:58:48,690 --> 00:58:46,540
career as that as a matter of fact you

1206
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:48,700
one writing prizes before you even got

1207
00:58:54,030 --> 00:58:51,130
into any of this stuff but you became

1208
00:58:58,100 --> 00:58:54,040
really successful as a entrepreneur and

1209
00:59:00,900 --> 00:58:58,110
a venture capitalist tell us what that

1210
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:00,910
what that means I mean a lot of people

1211
00:59:09,090 --> 00:59:04,090
stumble into Silicon Valley and don't

1212
00:59:11,850 --> 00:59:09,100
wind up figuring out how to operate in

1213
00:59:13,860 --> 00:59:11,860
the game at this different level that

1214
00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:13,870
you did what do you think that says

1215
00:59:20,850 --> 00:59:17,110
about you and what do you think it says

1216
00:59:24,060 --> 00:59:20,860
about other people in this field and

1217
00:59:27,030 --> 00:59:24,070
where they might grow in terms of the

1218
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:27,040
practical figuring out the world kind of

1219
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:30,490
stuff well in you know one thing about

1220
00:59:34,170 --> 00:59:32,410
Silicon Valley is that you cannot hide

1221
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:34,180
anywhere because people know what you've

1222
00:59:38,700 --> 00:59:36,970
done they know your mistakes and your

1223
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:38,710
mistakes are very important by the way I

1224
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:43,450
mean and they know you know the good

1225
00:59:50,970 --> 00:59:47,890
stuff you've done and you know they are

1226
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:50,980
in venture capital success is measured

1227
00:59:56,910 --> 00:59:54,610
in in dollars so there are a lot of

1228
00:59:59,580 --> 00:59:56,920
people who've made more money many have

1229
01:00:08,130 --> 00:59:59,590
in in Silicon Valley and no power to

1230
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:08,140
them my you know I had the lack of the

1231
01:00:15,030 --> 01:00:12,090
privilege of being an engineer and

1232
01:00:16,770 --> 01:00:15,040
computer scientist before I was an

1233
01:00:19,350 --> 01:00:16,780
entrepreneur and then being an

1234
01:00:22,350 --> 01:00:19,360
entrepreneur before I was an investor so

1235
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:22,360
I've been i sat on those sides of the

1236
01:00:29,700 --> 01:00:26,410
table before i sat on the side of the

1237
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:29,710
table where I am now so I know what it

1238
01:00:36,570 --> 01:00:34,090
takes and I know the things that you

1239
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:36,580
don't learn in Business School like you

1240
01:00:41,610 --> 01:00:39,250
know what do you do when you wake up at

1241
01:00:43,780 --> 01:00:41,620
two o'clock in the morning sweating and

1242
01:00:48,220 --> 01:00:43,790
knowing you cannot make payroll

1243
01:00:50,950 --> 01:00:48,230
okay and are things you can do when but

1244
01:00:57,100 --> 01:00:50,960
yeah you know that they don't teach that

1245
01:01:00,670 --> 01:00:57,110
and I've been there and that's why I can

1246
01:01:03,820 --> 01:01:00,680
be helpful to you know young company why

1247
01:01:06,850 --> 01:01:03,830
don't more scientists figure that out

1248
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:06,860
because there's there's something that

1249
01:01:13,150 --> 01:01:10,970
that brings more broadly to scientific

1250
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:13,160
inquiry especially when the scientific

1251
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:15,770
inquiry demands that we step outside of

1252
01:01:20,610 --> 01:01:18,290
the box like you have so many times I

1253
01:01:28,290 --> 01:01:20,620
mean I see the parallels do you I mean

1254
01:01:30,850 --> 01:01:28,300
yes but I think we the secret is that

1255
01:01:33,700 --> 01:01:30,860
when you're an entrepreneur or a

1256
01:01:37,630 --> 01:01:33,710
scientist you know inventing something

1257
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:37,640
or you you have to be you know what

1258
01:01:42,610 --> 01:01:39,410
people call interrupt-driven

1259
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:42,620
I mean the phone call comes in there is

1260
01:01:46,780 --> 01:01:44,330
an opportunity there is a new thing you

1261
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:46,790
jump on it you make decisions you change

1262
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:49,810
the plan you get more money you really

1263
01:01:53,410 --> 01:01:52,250
reallocate your resources your

1264
01:01:56,290 --> 01:01:53,420
priorities and so on

1265
01:01:58,810 --> 01:01:56,300
so that's there are people who have that

1266
01:02:00,850 --> 01:01:58,820
kind of mind and those are the people

1267
01:02:04,450 --> 01:02:00,860
those are the great entrepreneurs great

1268
01:02:06,580 --> 01:02:04,460
CEOs and so on then and as an

1269
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:06,590
entrepreneur you learn you learn that or

1270
01:02:14,980 --> 01:02:10,730
you get out okay and I I did learn some

1271
01:02:17,470 --> 01:02:14,990
of that but then as an investor you have

1272
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:17,480
to look all the time you have to look at

1273
01:02:22,390 --> 01:02:20,330
the long long range you you know you

1274
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:22,400
invest in something you know it's not

1275
01:02:25,180 --> 01:02:24,530
like buying a stock that you can sell to

1276
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:25,190
move

1277
01:02:30,070 --> 01:02:27,290
I mean venture capitalist is buying

1278
01:02:33,100 --> 01:02:30,080
stock that has essentially it's paper

1279
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:33,110
with no value whatsoever and now we're

1280
01:02:41,050 --> 01:02:36,770
going to work very very hard four to

1281
01:02:44,050 --> 01:02:41,060
five seven ten years maybe more with a

1282
01:02:47,860 --> 01:02:44,060
team of people that were intimately

1283
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:47,870
you know linked to sort of guiding them

1284
01:02:52,540 --> 01:02:50,450
providing resources they need so that

1285
01:02:54,490 --> 01:02:52,550
that piece of paper is going to be worth

1286
01:02:56,010 --> 01:02:54,500
something someday I mean look at the

1287
01:03:00,840 --> 01:02:56,020
history of Apple you know

1288
01:03:04,190 --> 01:03:00,850
and it's very hard it is very rare to

1289
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:04,200
find people who have both types of of

1290
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:08,410
mine who can both look react very

1291
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:11,530
quickly to an interrupt to a crisis to

1292
01:03:16,380 --> 01:03:14,050
something and keep their eye on the

1293
01:03:17,580 --> 01:03:16,390
wrong term because that's what you have

1294
01:03:19,710 --> 01:03:17,590
to do is you're going to be a good

1295
01:03:22,109 --> 01:03:19,720
investor increase the good and good

1296
01:03:24,570 --> 01:03:22,119
venture capitalists which is different

1297
01:03:28,470 --> 01:03:24,580
from you know being an investor in the

1298
01:03:32,550 --> 01:03:28,480
stock market so I've had very good

1299
01:03:36,780 --> 01:03:32,560
mentors in that field people I've worked

1300
01:03:38,850 --> 01:03:36,790
with for a long long time and you know

1301
01:03:42,750 --> 01:03:38,860
I've learned some stuff from them and I

1302
01:03:45,330 --> 01:03:42,760
try to apply that to to UFO so I don't

1303
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:45,340
react to every you know every time

1304
01:03:50,310 --> 01:03:47,290
somebody sees something or every time

1305
01:03:52,770 --> 01:03:50,320
the Air Force or the government makes a

1306
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:52,780
claim I keep looking at the wrong term

1307
01:03:58,980 --> 01:03:56,170
in the meantime I look at you know what

1308
01:04:00,599 --> 01:03:58,990
people resources I have and what I can

1309
01:04:03,750 --> 01:04:00,609
do at my own level and that's what I

1310
01:04:06,090 --> 01:04:03,760
continue to do and I'm not going to you

1311
01:04:09,930 --> 01:04:06,100
know expect that somebody is going to

1312
01:04:11,910 --> 01:04:09,940
give me you know a grant for a ten year

1313
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:11,920
research project because it's not going

1314
01:04:17,490 --> 01:04:14,290
to happen I mean if it happens fine but

1315
01:04:19,260 --> 01:04:17,500
you know in the meantime I'm not going

1316
01:04:23,700 --> 01:04:19,270
to wait for that I'm going to do my

1317
01:04:26,450 --> 01:04:23,710
stuff at my level and try to help other

1318
01:04:30,150 --> 01:04:26,460
people who you know are doing research

1319
01:04:32,670 --> 01:04:30,160
if I can if I can have something of

1320
01:04:34,980 --> 01:04:32,680
benefit to them and as I get older I

1321
01:04:37,140 --> 01:04:34,990
want to do more of that in other words

1322
01:04:40,109 --> 01:04:37,150
what spending more time helping other

1323
01:04:42,780 --> 01:04:40,119
people in the field get over those those

1324
01:04:45,060 --> 01:04:42,790
obstacles and and continuing the

1325
01:04:47,609 --> 01:04:45,070
archival work once again our guest has

1326
01:04:51,599 --> 01:04:47,619
been dr. jacques valet the books you're

1327
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:51,609
going to want to check out by put in the

1328
01:04:57,570 --> 01:04:54,130
attic for your kids kids put in a deep

1329
01:05:00,330 --> 01:04:57,580
data vault or forbidden science vol 1 2

1330
01:05:02,220 --> 01:05:00,340
& 3 it's been terrific having you on and

1331
01:05:05,470 --> 01:05:02,230
i thank you so much for joining me thank

1332
01:05:07,940 --> 01:05:05,480
you very much

1333
01:05:09,950 --> 01:05:07,950
thanks again to dr. Jacques Vallee for

1334
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:09,960
joining me today on skeptic oh one

1335
01:05:13,660 --> 01:05:11,250
question I guess I tee up from this

1336
01:05:16,490 --> 01:05:13,670
interview what do you make of the

1337
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:16,500
ordinary way that he talks about such

1338
01:05:22,609 --> 01:05:19,890
extraordinary events and particularly

1339
01:05:24,290 --> 01:05:22,619
extraordinary science and does this

1340
01:05:26,359 --> 01:05:24,300
reveal that there's some deeper

1341
01:05:29,870 --> 01:05:26,369
knowledge about things that most of us

1342
01:05:31,579 --> 01:05:29,880
just don't know about now you can

1343
01:05:33,620 --> 01:05:31,589
probably guess my answer that question

1344
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:33,630
but I want to hear yours and I'd love to

1345
01:05:38,180 --> 01:05:36,210
do so go to the skeptical website find

1346
01:05:39,950 --> 01:05:38,190
the skeptical forum Joe and leave me an

1347
01:05:41,900 --> 01:05:39,960
answer or leave me an idea share your

1348
01:05:44,140 --> 01:05:41,910
ideas with other people connect with me

1349
01:05:46,700 --> 01:05:44,150
on Facebook or just send me an email

1350
01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:46,710
while you're there of course be sure to

1351
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:50,160
check out the over 350 previous episodes

1352
01:05:54,890 --> 01:05:52,050
of skeptical all they're all available

1353
01:05:57,170 --> 01:05:54,900
for free for download please take

1354
01:05:59,240 --> 01:05:57,180
advantage of it love when people find

1355
01:06:02,150 --> 01:05:59,250
the show and then find all the old

1356
01:06:05,599 --> 01:06:02,160
episodes and enjoy cling back through

1357
01:06:07,370 --> 01:06:05,609
that journey with me so if that's you do

1358
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:07,380
it and if you feel inclined to send me

1359
01:06:11,210 --> 01:06:08,730
an email when you're doing it that's

1360
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:11,220
great too I have a number of great shows

1361
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:13,170
coming up they're gonna come out every

1362
01:06:19,370 --> 01:06:15,890
week for a while because I'm just been

1363
01:06:21,290 --> 01:06:19,380
overzealous interviewing has got the

1364
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:21,300
best of me and I have a little bit of a

1365
01:06:26,900 --> 01:06:23,970
backlog so stay with me for all of that

1366
01:06:28,790 --> 01:06:26,910
until next time take care and bye for